Wednesday, 15 December 2021

December 2021 Forth and Clyde Area Group Meeting

Picture it, a dreich, dark afternoon in the post-industrial wastelands of West Lothian; lowsing time for a bunch of dishevelled chaps, blue with cold, haggard with overwork and with the light of the joy of life dulling from their eyes, trudging out of the 2mm Scale Association Turnout Strip Sweatshop which had been temporarily set up in the meeting rooms of the Edinburgh Society of Model Engineers. Yes, it had been the Forth and Clyde Area Group's introduction to the harsh reality of the production of those nice shiny bits of copper-clad which emanate from the Association's Shop 1.

Eight doughty individuals made their way to the meeting place on Saturday, little realising the  "pleasures" in store. As well as Overseer Nigel, the labour consisted of the usual 3 Als, only one Jim, Graham, Stephen and, for the first time in his physical manifestation, Martin, who had previously managed to attend a number of Zoom sessions, but that nasty four-letter word, work, had prevented attendance in person before.

Given the current concerns over the Covid Omicron variant and the recent Scottish Government guidance, we were all wearing masks whilst circulating in the meeting room, and windows were kept open to assist in prevent the blood from circulating in the once warm humans in the room.

Anyway, as you may have gathered from the foregoing, The Area Group has taken on the mantle of producing copper clad sleepers and turnout strips for the Association, under the direction and guidance of Nigel. Our first session was to produce a batches of 50 turnout strips. Nigel had brought along a guillotine and the patented Blackburn Sleeper Chopper Machine; marvellous in its ingenuity and powered by a motor sufficient to dim the lights throughout West Lothian when starting. Nigel took a couple of victims willing volunteers to show them the ropes. It turned out to be really quite simple in the end, and very few fingers were sacrificed to the Sleeper Chopper Machine (SCM). Here we have the Nigel guillotining the sheets down to size to fit the SCM, Jim on the SCM itself and, hiding at the back, Stephen on Quality Control, weeding out those bits which did not come up to scratch.

The other part of the operation involved Martin counting and Alastair bagging the strips. There is a set of scales behind the detergent box which was used to avoid counting every strip. However, the battery ran out part way through the session, probably discouraged by the temperature in the room, resulting in resort to counting, which did give problems to one of the more arithmetically challenged amongst our number. (That's why he was taking this photo.)

The scales weren't the only thing affected by temperature. After a while, the reject rate of strips became much higher. It was decided that this was probably due to the brittle behaviour of the material in low temperatures, so the operation was abandoned. However, we had produced a goodly number of bags and had proven that we could churn the beasties out in fairly quick time, providing enough people were present to create an efficient production line. Perhaps we'll have to limit our production sessions to warmer days, at least until opening of windows is no longer required in the battle against Covid.

Our former Press Officer, Graham, has produced a wee video of the process:

As not everybody could be employed on the production line, folk had brought along their own projects to work on. Graham was producing etched chairs using the doofer demonstrated by James at a previous meeting. He has had much more success with that than the "official" way by using the 3D thingummy available from Shop 1. Yet again, a case of finding what works for you.

Stephen, with his other hat as a 7mm modeller on, was drawing up a plan for an 0 Gauge compatriot (i.e. he was drawing up a plan for a layout to be received by that compatriot, not for a companion in that strange scale) . Disciplinary measures are underway.
New boy, Martin, had brought along his first 2mm model, a scratchbuilt Caledonian Railway outside framed covered van. An excellent start, particularly on what is not exactly an easy prototype. He was busy creating another on the day. Masochism clearly runs deep in his psyche.
Alistair ("i" and "t") was beginning to cut out the walls for his farm building. It's his first essay into using styrene sheet, having been previously a user of mashed and flattened dead trees, and he was tentatively picking up the differing techniques necessary.

Alastair ("a" and "t" this time) was also doing some builderwork, knocking together a wee Ratio hut for his embryonic South Queensferry layout. It's building into a nice wee model.
And the third of the Als (with an "i" and a "d") was wielding his piercing saw on his slow voyage towards the depiction of an exNBR C15 4-4-2T. The class 37 in the background definitely had a Not to be Moved sign, so he was unlikely to get run over.

Over in the far cornet , Jim was churning out another 7ton Caley mineral wagon, made from his own Buchanan Kits etch. "How many is that now, Jim?" "Never enough. Can always do with another one or two. Now be off with you and your impertinent questions!"

The first line of the above paragraph contains a typo; Jim was not working inside a brass wind instrument, but was working in a corner. Sincere and humble apologies from the author to any who may have been misled.

Nigel was finding the cold all too much... We had to point out that lying in front of the 37, was not going to result in a swift release from all woes.

And so, that was the last meeting of 2021. Given the situation, it might be our last physical meeting for a while, but we'll have to wait and see. Our next meeting, on Saturday 8th January 2022, will have a Zoom session anyway, which may be all we have. Ah, well. 

Best wishes for Christmas to all our dedicated readers.

Wednesday, 10 November 2021

November 2021 Forth and Clyde Area Group Meeting

Another Conventicle of the Forth and Clyde congregation of the 2mm Scale Faithful was held with the purpose of upholding the cause of the One and Only True Scale. Held  on November 6th in the woods at a secret location in the wastelands to the south-east of Uphall, participants undertook the precaution of arriving long after the official time for the gathering, thus avoiding the N Gauge troopers wielding the Oath of Abjuration lying in wait amongst the pines.

When, eventually, the Conventicle assembled and the roll call was taken, it was noted that it consisted of Nigel, Andy, Graham, Steven, Simon, 3 Als and 2 Jims. Those with calculators will note that this means that a total of ten people attended. This, indeed, was a record since the Group started meeting at the secret location of the ESME club rooms at Almondell. Although there was a Zoom session planned for later in the day, nobody Zoomed in, so, forlorn and abandoned by the outer world, those present girded their loins and set their minds to maintaining the faith by blethering (and blethering and blethering and blethering ...) about the joys of 2mm modelling, cabbages and kings. This involved much standing around and drinking cups of tea.

Eventually, some of those present took out their tools (oo-er, missus!) and proceeded to do some modelling, or in the case of N#1, enlightening the more technically recalcitrant as to the use of an Arduino to control servos. He advised that beginners could do much worse than obtaining an Elegoo Super Starter kit which comes with copious instructions. (Apparently Elegoo is compatible with Arduino.)

N#1 then proceeded to show the use of the bits in the kit for controlling a servo, showing how it easy it is to control speed and limits. Whilst simple stuff to the cognoscenti, there will be a steep learning curve for this scribe (who has just received his starter kit today.) Thought I'd taken a picture, but didn't so you'll just have to shut your eyes and imagine. 

A#3, having decided that etched chair turnout construction was not for him, was experimenting with using Easitrac sleeper base as the basis for interlaced sleeper turnout construction. He found that slicing off the moulded on chair from a sleeper would allow the dropping in of a pegged slide chair. That may prove to be the basis of an entire turnout from Easitrac components. He'll see what happens with check chairs for the crossing area. It looks like an interesting concept, which will be very useful if it proves viable.

J#2 was also playing about with servos, and showed us the fruit of some experimentation with ways of helping the wee beasties cling on to the underside of layouts by a variety of mounting brackets.They operate in similar way to a Tortoise with a single arm moving about a fulcrum, but tend to take up a lot less room than the aforesaid shelled animal.

A#1, keeping the true faith defiantly non-digital in the face of the above attacks on the One True Way, was scribbling way furiously on his sketch pad with a plan for a small layout. 

When, saddened and bereft by the lack of company from the nether regions of the Group who were not in attendance at the putative Zoom session, a couple of the brethern attempted to cheer us up by showing what they had been working on in recent times in the privacy of their own homes.

J#1 showed the progress on the goods yard of his Caledonian layout, Kirkallanmuir. Looking good with the various buildings in position along with the derrick half-inched from Connerburn.

A#2 also showed progress, this time on his accidental Highland layout, Aucheidh, with various bits and pieces in position on the layout along with some stock to fill out the gaps. Interestingly, the hand of J#1 can also be seen in this layout as well, as he had produced the etch for the station platform fencing, giving a very nice touch.

Lastly, but by no means leastly, we come to the toolset which G#1 had brought along to enable work on his next attempt at an etched chairplate turnout. (Contrary to the announcement in the previous edition of this broadsheet, he has not given up on this method of construction, only on his first attempt. The journalist responsible has received a severe censuring and has been hauled up before the Disciplinary Elders, where he or she received the severe fine of provision of a pint of refreshing amber liquid to G#1 in the Horseshoe Bar)

"Nothing surprising here!", I imagine the intelligent reader will exclaim when perusing the above daguerreotype of the toolset, "That's only what one would expect." Ah!, but what does not appear in the image is G#1's secret weapon, developed by the Swiss Army. Not sure what they developed it for, but perhaps it was for burning stones out of horses' hooves. (Try that now and hunt saboteurs and public outrage will ensure that you will be thrown out the Pony Club. And rightly so.)
He claims it is a 100 Watt soldering iron and showed us it in use making alignment pins for holding rail. It certainly seemed to do the job soldering pins onto brass strip. The smoke emanating from the ends of the fingers which held the brass strip, lent a certain piquancy to the atmosphere in the room. Whilst the instrument was certainly efficacious in applying heat, the downside was that the owner was late for his tea as he had to wait for six hours before packing it away to ging hame.

The rest of us departed after a few rousing choruses of the Association song. The next meeting of the faithful will be sometime in December at a secret location near Uphall.

Wednesday, 13 October 2021

October 2021 Forth and Clyde Area Group Meeting

And so they flocked to that wooded shrine to small railways and general model engineering excellence, in the badlands between Livingston and Broxburn, ESME. Yes, yet again, it was the far famed and lauded 2mm Association's Forth and Clyde Area Group Meeting, when these staunch and devout devotees of The One True Scale (all hail to the 9.42mm track gauge!) gathered to join together in communal praise of mechanical mice.

This month congregation of nine, consisted of the trio of Als, with the others consisting of Andy, Graham, only one Jim, Simon, Stephen and lastly, but certainly not leastly, from the far west, crossing land and sea to attend, our man from the fabled, misty lands of the West, Richard.

After the usual blether about general modelling matters, this time with a very historical slant, the Glasgow Model Rail exhibitions in the Maclellan Galleries featuring high on the list of topics amongst the brethern (blethern?), each member grabbed a socially distanced table, setting up their modelling projects. Then, of course, borrowing the tools and materials they had forgotten.

Al#3, having given up turnout construction with individual chairs soldered onto copper clad sleepers for the putative Area Group layout, was making a turnout for his own planned layout of South Queensferry in the late 19th century. Given the place and time, turnouts had interlaced sleeper construction allowing Al to use Easitrack sleepers for the bulk of the turnout. He was pretty pleased with the progress he had made by the end of the day, with the crossing in place. Next step will be working out where to put the necessary copper clad sleepers to support check rails and the point blades.

Richard was producing another NCB hopper wagon, from his own etch design and had brought along some of the ones he had already produced. A fine model; he's going to need a great many to support his layout depicting Fenwick Pit.

Simon was building an Association BR standard goods brake van. Sorry, no photos, but he had brought along some of his recent output (not including his multitude of fish vans). The beaver tail observation car is from a 3D print from Shapeways. He is still puzzled as to the best way to glaze the subtle curves of the tail. He also brought along his completed tandem turnout for the aforesaid Group layout. Looking good - all it needs now is a layout to put it on. (The tie bars are temporary until we decide the particular universe from which we will select our chosen means of point operation.)

Whilst on the subject of turnouts, Graham had brought the turnout he had been building for the layout. After struggling with the use of the etched chairs, he had been making amendments to the turnout, but finding that upon resolderingof the plates to the sleepers, adhesion went aglae resulting in many bad words and a stern resolution to abandon the use of etched chairs. So that's 50% of those in the Group who have tried that system have decided it is not for them.

Stephen was planning a layout to fit his man cave, using a classic layout as inspiration. Originally he had been planning for a roundy-roundy, but recognising limits in size while maintaining a decent minimum radius, he is now going for an end to end. Whilst the plan is ambitious, he is canny enough to plan for construction in stages to keep the impetus going, with some colour coding representing his current thoughts as to the stages.

Al#1 was cutting out the walls for the farm outbuilding he has been planning. He is slightly baffled by the relationship of the various sections of the building. The drawing he is using shows only elevations, with no plan and it does appear that some imagination will be needed to make something which works.

Al#2 built a set of access steps from the yard to the goods platform of his layout. He had also started on a removable sheep ramp for loading the top deck of double decked sheep vans. Down such rabbit holes does the sport of railway modelling lead us...

Jim was building a wagon, again from one of his own etches, a CR mineral wagon (I think). He needs rather a lot of these beasties for his layout, Kirkallanmuir.

 It fell unto the lot of the aforesaid Jim to give that day's talk, this one being a short demonstration on bending wire.  Jim's calling as a mouth mechanic had given him plenty of practice in bending highly recalcitrant stainless steel wire, which has stood him in good stead for modelling. He showed us a couple of his orthodontic pliers: one type which have a great advantage of coming parallel at 1mm open jaw, meaning the tips are fully touching when the pliers are closed ensuring an excellent grip of the wire,(a situation not usually met with in ordinary pliers):

And another type with one tapered circular jaw against a flat jaw, for creating curves. Nae picture, but.

Jim demonstrated different means of straightening wire depending on the hardness of the wire. Guitar string should spring into a reasonable verisimilitude of an infinite radius curve when out the packet, but semi-hard wire like phosphor bronze will need running between thumb and opposing finger applying the appropriate force in opposition to the pre-existing curve. A bit of an art, easily learnt, but not easily verbally described so I'm not going to bother. As for soft wire, this can be straightened quite easily, either by stretching or by rolling between two hard surfaces. 

 As examples of bending of each grade of wire, Jim showed us by example, creating a UJ coupling wire from guitar wire and a downpipe from half hard brass with brackets in soft wire. Given the size, neither photographs well using my box Brownie, but you can gasp with wonder at these blurry images:

An excellent demonstration, enjoyed by all, including the hecklers at the back.

Next month will be Show and Tell time, with a Zoom session for the Ootlanders. Date to be decided.

Wednesday, 8 September 2021

September 2021 Forth and Clyde Area Group Meeting

On 4th September, the ESME Pleasure Palace was, once again, graced by the august presence of some gentlemen of the Forth and Clyde Area Group of that splendid organisation, the 2mm Scale Association. (Of course, all that goes to show is that they were behind the times as usual, as it wasn't august any more.)

As last month, the Group mustered to the strength of two-thirds of a dozen. Those stern individualists; Stephen, Graham and Nigel, were joined by a happy pair of Jameses (including the one commonly known as Jim) and the Al triplets, absolutely identical apart from their looks, voices and names. Later in the day, during the bi-monthly Zoom session, they were joined by the magic of the ether by the loon, Tony from Furryboots City.

After the usual chinwagging and setting the world to rights (calling to mind that phrase - Wha's like us? : d**n few and they're a' deid!) there was a move to populate the socially distanced tables with modelling tools and bits of the scalpel artists' latest creations. J#1 showed us his latest creations; a Caledonian Railway goods shed pretty well finished along with a stable block and minor offices at an advanced stage of construction.

Meanwhile, J#2 was busying himself with preparing some etched chairs for incorporation into a turnout. Here is his portable work tray showing some already prepared in the plastic box along with their originating etched. He is using the 3D printed doofer available from the Association shop for that very purpose. The aforesaid turnout was also making an appearance.

Nigel was busying himself with creating another low relief building for his layout. An action shot shows him marking up the plastic before cutting out. 

Graham and Al#3 were continuing to work on the turnouts that they had brought along to the August meeting, teaching all the rest of us some new epithets which we had never heard applied to pieces of trackwork before. Al#2 was pretending he was making a facing lock and detector bar cover by randomly cutting up wee bits of black plastic whilst Al#1 was starting to mark out his planned barn. He was using very heavy duty water colour paper which the assembled troops agreed would make a nice finish for a harled wall without further texturing. All the while, Stephen had his head buried in books seeking inspiration for recovery from a recent downturn in modelling mojo.

Following our individual delicious repasts, the Zoom session started, when we were joined by the Aberdonian loon, Tony . The chosen topic for the session was “The Undergubbins of Wee Locomotive Engines”. Translating from the wording emanating from the strange imaginary world inhabited by the Area Organiser ("Sir" to his friends, which is why he doesn't have any) this meant locomotive chassis. 

J#1 started it off with a well prepared presentation showing his developing techniques over the years constructing models of Caledonian Railway locos. His approach has been to incorporate compensated wheelsets, not for track holding, but to maximise the points of contact for electrical conductivity and to keep gears and gear shaft out of cabs where at all possible. The first photo shows the layout of a 2-4-0 loco with the photo of the hand-knitted components for the loco chassis beside it. Since then, he has moved on to drawing his own etches and the third photo shows the chassis for an 0-6-0T made up from such an etch.
The 0-6-0T chassis shows the slots required in the outer frame to allow the wheels held in the inner compensation beams to move vertically.
Jim has recently been installing stay-alive units in his locos and says that in future he will probably eschew the use of compensation, given the great improvement in running brought about by the use of the stay-alives. However, he will continue to use split coupling rods in his 6-wheel chassis as he is of the opinion that we can only get reasonable running by introducing (controlled) "slop" into chassis. There was much nodding of heads in agreement with this sentiment.
After the professional presentation by J#1, Al#2 showed some random photos demonstrating some of his techniques. The picture on the left shows his use of extended frames with Association spacers to maintain frame position on the chassis of a 4-4-0T. The extended frames are removed once the frames are fixed satisfactorily. This was learnt from the building the Association Black Five kit which uses the same techniques, albeit on 0.25mm etched frames rather than the 0.6mm brass used on the 4-4-0T. The second photo shows the use of small lengths of PCB glued to the motor to act as solder pads. This meant the wires feeding the motor can be kept in place without the danger of movement eventually breaking the wire. Further pads were added later to allow the fitting of a stay-alive whose components (just) fit in the frames between the axles.

Nigel had brought along a couple of very small diesel shunters which he had constructed back at the beginning of the century. 

The black DY1 on the right had had a chassis constructed without the use of machine tools with the exception of a mini-drill on a couple of occasions, just to prove it could be done. He had fully written the technique up in the Association magazine of October 2003, but he gave a brief resume at the meeting. He had used fully geared wheels, avoiding the use of coupling rods (just like the real thing, I presume). The outside frames were of pcb with appropriate breaks in the copper to provide the requisite insulation, and frame spacers of solid brass carved with files and all screwed together. The photos below (taken from the article) clearly demonstrate the technique. The heavy brass lumps give the loco good hauling power and pick-up for such a diminutive
little beastie

Last up was tidings from our North-east correspondent, Tony who has been working his way through a Mike Raithby 8F. (Apparently, he had been told that this would be easier than a Raithby 4F; there's obviously someone with a warped sense of humour out there.) He is using this as a practice before building the bodies of his 9 (that's right - nine) Association Black 5 kits. He has made a good start with the body, with the fancy curves of the Belpaire firebox and the tapered boiler and has started on the chassis.

Tony also has the nasty habit of chasing visiting kettles around the countryside and photographing them. He showed a really nice snap of Tornado on the Ferryden viaduct at Montrose. Inspiration indeed.

The Zoom session closed down and people started to drift off home.
And that was that. Or was it? Those with staying power were rewarded by Al#3 organising a wee trip on a 7.25" gauge train. Here's the merry band boarding the 1637 from Here to Back Where They Started under the watchful eye of aforesaid Al#3.


Heeding solemn warnings not to lean out, the stalwarts duly wheeched twice round a roundy-roundy on the ESME pleasure grounds. Tunnel, gradients and stations. And the scenery was really realistic. Great stuff! Unfortunately the name of the part owner and driver was not recorded but he was very welcoming of questions, from which we found that the use of 3D printing for detailing is used on big trains too.

Next meeting on Saturday 9th October. No Zoom session this time.

Saturday, 14 August 2021

August 2021 Forth and Clyde Area Group Meeting

After the miserable attendance figures for the Group meeting in July, numbers were considerably increased for the August meeting. Eight stalwarts met at the ESME Pleasure Palace, albeit after having been reminded of where their loyalties lay, by some burly visitors to their houses carrying baseball bats. As a result a trio of Als, along with a couple of Jims and assorted riff raff without a name-sharing treaty, came together to chat for a few hours and occasionally pretend they were doing some modelling. (The chap, who shall be nameless, who turned up in a posing pouch was gently, but very swiftly, reminded that it wasn't that type of modelling which was required.)

Alastair, Alisdair, Alisdair, Graham, James, Jim, Nigel and Simon met to ostensibly talk about Track, based around the various turnouts being constructed for the putative new Group layout. First of all, we chose our socially distanced jousting positions. A few turnouts were shown, in different stages of construction:


By chance and without malice aforethought, all the turnouts in attendance were those constructed in copper-clad sleepers and Laurie's etched chairs. (There are a couple of Easitrac versions under construction by some unable to attend.) Such little etched delights are available from a 2mmSA Shop near you but only if you are amongst the anointed who pay their subs to the glorious 2mmSA. (Words to the Association song "All hail to the small but mighty 2mm Finescale", will be available in the forthcoming 2mmSA Songbook, which will be available from selected refined and upmarket retail outlets across the world.)

There was a good deal of discussion about the best way to use the chairs; whether to slide onto the rail before fixing or sliding the rail into already fixed chairs being the question. It was agreed that do what suits you best would be the best approach. (Now there's a surprise!) Simon showed his version of the tandem turnout - well advanced and looking good. He had created a simple wee doofer to open out the chairs on the sleepers. The wee bit of rail has a nice taper at the end to make it easier to use.

James took the approach of threading the rails on the sleepers for his partially completed turnout. He had produced another doofer for threading the chairs on along a long length of rail. The wee clamp allows the rail to be slid along so that not too much pokes out to reduce the movement at the end of the rail on longer lengths.

Graham had had a lot of learning opportunities during construction of his turnout, the principal one (apart from the chance to rehearse his full vocabulary of bad words) was that this method of construction was not for him. Having said that, he had managed to construct a perfectly serviceable turnout (still to have check rails and stretcher added)

Alastair was at a very early stage of construction, having just prepared and laid out the sleepers. He was advised to gap the sleepers before laying rails, which he duly did during the meeting.

 Jim produced a completed tandem turnout, which looked extremely natty, as should perhaps only be expected - he has produced a good number of such beasties over the years. However, this is his first using the etched chairs and he has produced an extremely neat job. The bits of Easitrac at the ends are a temporary measure to help with the alignment of the short bits of rails at the extremities. He had also brought along a couple of the Jim Patent Track Testing Wagons™; merely blocks of wood on a basic underframe which saves damaging detailed models whilst whizzing them through turnouts at TGV speeds to test the running qualities of the turnouts.


Incidentally, the wee "flags" in the foreground of the JPTTWs photo is James's version of the track alignment pins shown in the Association "Track - How It Works and How to Model It" book. James is a refugee from P4 (we accept all types - nae pride) who wishes he had known about such a simple wee gadget before he Saw The Light. Just goes to show what those benighted souls in bigger scales could learn by buying a copy of the foresdaid book. Available to non-members by post from the Association at 2mm Scale Association Promotional Products for the appropriate quantity of spondulicks.

 Meanwhile those who had no turnouts to show off, skulked in corners sulking and kidding on they were enjoying themselves. However, they consoled themselves by doing some other modelling. 

Nigel was active in producing some buildings for the rear of his layout.A low relief  northlight factory building was shown. Extremely neat with etched windows. He was also churning out another low relief building with 3D printed windows, but the idiot photographer forgot to take a photo to show you the comparison.

Nigel also spent time on his laptop, doing the design for some new Association Mk5 driving wheels to go under some obscure Southern Railway locomotive (Merchant Country or something like that) Entreaties from some not to waste his time on such like, when he could be doing the same for every class of Scottish Pre-Grouping locomotives (even, in a fit of ecumenical fervour, allowing that NBR can only be (just) be an improvement of SR) were, quite rightly, ignored.

Alistair was preparing a design for a wee farm building he intends to construct. A complicated wee beast with the drawings allowing his artistic talents to shine through.

Alisdair was preparing the trackwork for some additional cassettes for his wee layout, as well as showing off his Highland Railway Directors' Saloon and assorted platform paraphernalia; oil lamp baskets on posts, a luggage hurley and a couple of footstools needed by the unfortunate passengers for HR trains who had a steep clamber from the very low platforms the HR provided at stations, in its typically parsimonious manner.

Jim also showed the canopies which he had built, using his own etches, for the Grampian Area Group's Dunallander layout. Lovely stuff, with the equally lovely buildings having been built by Mike of the Grampian loons.


And that was about it (forbye, my fingers are getting worn done with typing this twaddle).

Next meeting will be a bit earlier than usual, on Saturday 4th September, with a Zoom meeting in the afternoon to allow far flung members and the loons from the North-East (of Scotland) to join in for a whiley. Subject to be decided after a few more beers.